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Atheism: A belief system or not?

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Fine Point
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rainmusic


« on: May 06, 2009, 05:13:31 pm »

Atheism is Not a Belief System (Does This Really Need Repeating?)
Monday June 11, 2007

Over and over again, atheists have to keep repeating the fact that atheism is not a belief system, an ideology, a religion, a philosophy, or anything similar. What makes this especially annoying is that even if we pretend that atheism were just the denial of the existence of gods rather than a mere disbelief in god, that still wouldn't qualify as a belief system — a single belief cannot be a belief system. Thus, the most common misunderstanding about atheism contradicts this misunderstanding, but it still has to be corrected on a regular basis.

Austin's Atheism Blog
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There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation. – Herbert Spencer
 

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fleamailman
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2009, 02:15:40 pm »

repost from "karma related to questioning ones faith" thread, elsewhere

the goblin thanked the poster noting that the point of the title is "how will my karma be effected if I question my faith", which admittedly is the mixing of unknowns here, that of "a tally" on the one hand, and "a judge" on the other, "...ah, but everyone knows Calvin's argument, which goes "if a potter makes a pot, and the pot leaks water, is it the fault of the pot or the potter, it's the fault of the potter isn't, so then, if God makes you, and you sin, whose fault is it"..." voiced the goblin, somehow knowing that the response of "free will", which is silly because God decides the amount of free will here, and knows the outcome too, in short, there is just nothing God doesn't know, nor anything that God can delegate to chance since God is the all knowing God, and with that the goblin added "...the other argument is the atheist's one in the picture below...", but the goblin preferred the Gnostic way where there is no tally nor judge, just a "journey to self" here

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dockster
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2009, 06:46:22 pm »

Hi,

Just browsing, and noticed your post.

I see that though the original goes back to 2007, that something prompted you to add your comment today.

I may be missing something here.

But,  is there a question inherent in this post?

Please. A note of clarification. Thank you.

 
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Fine Point
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rainmusic


« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2009, 02:41:04 pm »

Hi fleamailman,

Very good and thank you for adding that quote. 


Hi Dockster,

The blog was indeed written in 2007 and the question is, "Do you agree with Austin's reasoning that Atheism can't possibly be a belief system?" 
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There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation. – Herbert Spencer
 
dockster
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2009, 05:56:39 pm »

Hi again,

Being careful to avoid the quagmire of semantics?

My definition of an atheist is someone who does not subscribe to, or support, nor believe in, any God, god, deities, or supernatural beings of any sort, or the systems with which they are usually associated.

As to whether atheism is a "belief system"?

I would take issue with the word system. There exists no system. If anything the atheist is expressing noting more complicated than,  disbelief.

There is no system of belief required,  nor inferred here.

The atheist simply has no interest in, nor is involve in any way with, "worship" of a deity, nor the "religions" usually connected to them.

I have, of course, over the years,  heard many diverse points of view on this topic.   

One of the more prevalent, for example,  is the accusation that Atheism is actually a form of religion.

I believe, nothing could be further from the truth.

That concept, projected toward the atheist, usually by a religious person or persons,  is the very antithesis of the atheist's  attitude and perspective. 

In my experience, if atheists, in any of the vaguest possible links,  share any form of commonalty, it is their  dependence upon logic, reason and knowledge which produces the foundation for their value system, and exclusive of the emotional influences, nothing else.

I'm always open to other's points of view. 


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GoodWitch
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2009, 08:52:22 pm »

I never quite understood how a person can believe in nothing. I accept it, but don't understand it.
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dockster
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 11:41:14 am »

Hi GoodWitch,

Admittedly I'm having some difficulty responding to your comment.

I believe your inference is that an atheist believes in nothing.

Clearly that  is not the case. I can't imagine an individual with a working mind that doesn't believe in something. Actually a lot of somethings.

The last line of my post suggests that the atheist believes in "logic, reason and knowledge which produces the foundation for their value system".

Does that not define a basis for belief?

To use a classic example.

The religious Christian, Fundamentalist and Creationists for example,  believe that as written in Genesis. The earth, and all life upon it was created in six days, by a God..some 6000 years ago.   

The atheist believes the earth is 4.5 billions of years of age as established by cosmologists and astrophysicists, and that life upon the earth appeared some 3.5 billions of years ago. Further, as  determined by biologists and geneticists, living things are still in the process evolving, and have reached the present forms as we observe world wide today.

To the atheist, no God or gods are involved in any way.

Does that difference in opinion, define the atheist as having a belief in nothing?

As mentioned  earlier, I'm always open to other's points of view.






 
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wizer
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 04:32:33 pm »

I never quite understood how a person can believe in nothing. I accept it, but don't understand it.

You can't understand how someone cannot believe in a higher power, or just not believe in anything?

I believe in stuff! I do!

The earth around us, the sky above us, the universe all around that..it's there, it's real, it's part of our lives.

I just don't believe some dude with powers created all of it.

I don't.

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Fine Point
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rainmusic


« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2009, 07:38:12 pm »

I would take issue with the word system. There exists no system. If anything the atheist is expressing noting more complicated than,  disbelief.

I agree, it is that simple.  That there are even discussions around whether or not Atheism is a religion is indicative of most people's inability to break out of their accustomed paradigms. 
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There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation. – Herbert Spencer
 
GoodWitch
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 03:38:56 pm »

My use of the term "believe in nothing" means no higher power, not "nothing" as in this keyboard isn't really here. LOL

It's just hard for me to imagine. Just like I can't imagine randomness as opposed to a divine plan.
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dockster
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 07:01:35 pm »

Hi GoodWitch,

OK. Your last post pretty much confirms one of my assumptions.

Most of us do "grow up" indoctrinated, at least to some degree, with a concept of a "higher power" of some sort, as part of the fabric of our value system.

"It's" just there, always there. Sitting permanently, vaguely, not particularly well defined,  in the background.

The mental and emotional space "it" occupies, is a fairly substantial  part of our consciousness.

Then one day you meet up with someone who dos not share in that opinion.

You naturally perceive that position as a "void" of some sort in that individual. 

That's where the "I never quite understood how a person can believe in nothing. I accept it, but don't understand it," originates.

I do believe I understand your conundrum, I really do.

If you ever feel you'd like to discuss the implications, or the concepts any further?

 I'm available. I'm here.   

   
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GoodWitch
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2009, 06:23:54 am »

No, I don't perceive it as a void. Simply a different paradigm, which I can't personally relate to.
I respect it as their choice. To me, it's logical that events follow events in an orderly fashion, the order of which is sometimes imperceivable to us except in hindsight.

I do not think everyone should believe as I do. My way is not the only way. But it's the only way for me.
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